# Sunk Loto

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{{Short description|Australian metal band}}
{{COI|date=May 2024}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=January 2022}}
{{Use Australian English|date=September 2012}}
{{Infobox musical artist
| name             = Sunk Loto
| image            = 
| image_size       = 200px
| landscape        = <!-- yes, if wide image, otherwise leave blank -->
| alt              = 
| caption          = Sunk Loto at the video for "Starved" (2003)
| background       = group_or_band
| alias            = Messiah
| origin           = [Gold Coast, Queensland](/source/Gold_Coast%2C_Queensland), Australia
| genre            = {{hlist|[Nu metal](/source/Nu_metal)|[alternative metal](/source/alternative_metal)|[alternative rock](/source/alternative_rock)|[rap metal](/source/rap_metal)}}
| years_active     = {{start date|1997}}–{{end date|2007}}; 2022–present
| label            = [Sony](/source/Sony)
| website          = 
| current_members  = 
* Jason Brown
* Dane Brown
* Sean Van Gennip
* Rohan Stevenson 
| past_members     =
* Luke McDonald
* Miles Matheson
* Adam Cox
* Rob Kaay
}}

'''Sunk Loto''' are an Australian [nu metal](/source/nu_metal) / [alternative metal](/source/alternative_metal) band formed in [Gold Coast, Queensland](/source/Gold_Coast%2C_Queensland) in 1997. The band's founding members are Dane Brown on drums, his brother Jason Brown on vocals, Luke McDonald on guitar and Sean Van Gennip on bass guitar. Sunk Loto signed a [recording contract](/source/recording_contract) with Sony Music Australia when the members' average age was 16 years. They released two studio albums, ''Big Picture Lies'' (13 October 2000) and ''[Between Birth and Death](/source/Between_Birth_and_Death)'' (17 November 2003); both reached the [ARIA Albums Chart](/source/ARIA_Charts) top&nbsp;50. Sunk Loto toured internationally between 1997 and 2007 headlining their own shows, appearing at major festivals such as The [Big Day Out](/source/Big_Day_Out) and Livid, and playing alongside international bands such as [Sevendust](/source/Sevendust), Korn and [Deftones](/source/Deftones).
The group disbanded in December 2007, and after a 15-year hiatus the original members re-formed the band in 2022 and have since performed around Australia with 2 sold out national tours, and released their first new song in 20 years “The Gallows Wait” with new guitarist Rohan Stevenson after announcing they had parted ways with Luke McDonald.
The band have announced they intend to release new music and continue touring.

== History ==
===1997–1999: Formation and ''Society Anxiety''===

Sunk Loto formed as a [heavy metal](/source/Heavy_metal_music) band, '''Messiah''', in the [Gold Coast, Queensland](/source/Gold_Coast%2C_Queensland) in March 1997 by Dane Brown on drums, his brother Jason Brown on lead vocals, Luke McDonald on guitar and Miles Matheson on bass guitar.<ref name="Nimmervoll">{{cite web | archiveurl = https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20030128130000/http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/14231/20030129-0000/www.howlspace.com.au/en3/sunkloto/sunkloto.htm | url = http://www.howlspace.com.au/en3/sunkloto/sunkloto.htm | title = Sunk Loto | publisher = Howlspace. White Room Electronic Publishing Pty Ltd | last = Nimmervoll | first = Ed | authorlink = Ed Nimmervoll | archivedate = 28 January 2003 | accessdate = 27 September 2015 }}{{cbignore|bot=medic}}</ref> Originally named Messiah, Jason Brown had met Luke McDonald at a local music store. Jason brought his younger brother Dane to practice sessions and McDonald's school mate, Sean Van Gennip joined the band when Miles decided to part ways, completing the new line-up.<ref name="Nimmervoll"/> A year later they changed their name due to a London band of that name:<ref name="Nimmervoll"/> Jason explained "we looked up Messiah in the dictionary and one of the meanings was 'liberators of the oppressed' so we took the first letter of each word to form LOTO and SUNK from the sinking of the first name."<ref name="O'Gorman">{{cite web | url = http://www.radioundercover.com/transcripts_sunk_loto.html | archive-url = https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20010322130000/http://www.radioundercover.com/transcripts_sunk_loto.html | url-status = dead | archive-date = 22 March 2001 | title = Transcripts: Sunk Loto | author = O'Gorman, Ros | author2 = Rachel | publisher = Undercover Media ([Paul Cashmere](/source/Paul_Cashmere), Ros O'Gorman) | date = 23 November 2000 | access-date = 27 September 2015 }}{{cbignore|bot=medic}}</ref>

In April 1999, the group signed with [Epic Records](/source/Epic_Records) when Dane was 13 and the band's oldest member, Van Gennip, was 17.<ref name="Nimmervoll"/> In November that year, they released a five-track extended play, ''[Society Anxiety](/source/Society_Anxiety)'', which was produced by [Paul McKercher](/source/Paul_McKercher) ([the Cruel Sea](/source/the_Cruel_Sea_(band)), [Spiderbait](/source/Spiderbait)).<ref name="Sony Society">{{cite web | url=http://www.sonybmg.com.au/cd/releaseDetails.do?catalogueNo=668400.2 | title=Australia :: CD Releases :: Sunk Loto :: ''Society Anxiety'' | publisher=[Sony BMG Music Entertainment](/source/Sony_BMG) | via=National Library of Australia | archive-url=https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20070906133234/http://www.sonybmg.com.au/cd/releaseDetails.do?catalogueNo=668400.2 | archive-date=6 September 2007 | access-date=12 January 2021 }} {{cbignore|bot=medic}}Note: this source has Paul McKercher as producer.</ref><ref name="Beatdust">{{cite web | archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20150507114026/http://www.beatdust.com/mixed-media-slang/mixed-media-slang-sunk-loto-between-birth-death-2003/ | url = http://www.beatdust.com/mixed-media-slang/mixed-media-slang-sunk-loto-between-birth-death-2003/ | title = Mixed Media Slang: Sunk Loto – ''Between Birth & Death'' (2003) | author = administrator | work = Beatdust | archive-date = 7 May 2015 | date = 17 March 2015 | access-date = 12 January 2021 | url-status = dead }} Note: this source has Phil McKeller {{sic}} as the producer.</ref> It peaked in the [ARIA Singles Chart](/source/ARIA_Charts) top&nbsp;40 at number 40.<ref name="ARIA Charts"/> Justin Donnelly of ''Blistering'' described their early sound "it was predictable. There wasn't much in the way of pushing the envelope song wise, and while the nu-metal angle is now a bit contrived, it was a sound that typified the time."<ref name="Donnelly">{{cite journal | url = http://www.blistering.com/fastpage/fpengine.php/link/1/templateid/5606/tempidx/4/menuid/2 | title = Review: Sunk Loto – ''Between Birth and Death'' | author = Donnelly, Justin | journal = Blistering | access-date = 27 September 2015 }}</ref> The administrator of ''Beatdust'' felt it "pays homage to its inspirations – elements of both ''Evil Empire'' era RATM and Deftones ''Around the Fur'' are heavily evident both musically and sonically throughout."<ref name="Beatdust"/> The lead track, "Vinegar Stroke", became a radio favourite.<ref name="Bartlett">{{cite web | url=http://15min.org/articles/2000/october/18/rock_2.html | title=Sunk Loto – Musicians Inspired by Fakery | author=Bartlett, Sam | website=The Post – TE Archive |location=Newcastle, NSW | date=18 October 2000 | via=National Library of Australia | archive-url=https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20120328024449/http://15min.org/articles/2000/october/18/rock_2.html | archive-date=28 March 2012 | access-date=12 January 2021 }}{{cbignore|bot=medic}}</ref> The band performed at a range of festivals including [Homebake](/source/Homebake), Big Day Out  and Offshore. They then scored their first national tour in mid 2000 which a 5 week touro of Australia supporting the Testeagles. They then commenced writing and recording their debut studio album Big Picture Lies.

=== 2000–2007: ''Big Picture Lies'' to ''Between Birth and Death'' ===

From 2000 to 2002 Adam Cox joined the band's live roster as their DJ, sampler and keyboardist.<ref name="Beatdust"/> Sunk Loto issued their debut album, ''Big Picture Lies'' (October 2000), with McKercher again as producer, in Sydney.<ref name="Nimmervoll"/><ref name="Beatdust"/><ref name="SonyBMG Big">{{cite web | url=http://www.sonybmg.com.au/cd/releaseDetails.do?catalogueNo=5006282000 | title= Australia :: CD Releases :: Sunk Loto :: ''Big Picture Lies'' | publisher=Sony BMG Music Entertainment | via=National Library of Australia | archive-url=https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20070906133739/http://www.sonybmg.com.au/cd/releaseDetails.do?catalogueNo=5006282000 | archive-date=6 September 2007 | access-date=13 January 2021 }}{{cbignore|bot=medic}}</ref> The band travelled to New York studio RPM to have it mixed by [Michael Barbiero](/source/Michael_Barbiero) (Guns n Roses).<ref name="Beatdust"/> It peaked at No.&nbsp;30 on the ARIA Albums Chart.<ref name="ARIA Charts">{{cite web|url=http://www.australian-charts.com/showinterpret.asp?interpret=Sunk+Loto|title=Sunk Loto Discography|publisher=Australian Charts Portal. Hung Medien|accessdate=27 September 2015}}</ref> According to Australian music journalist, [Ed Nimmervoll](/source/Ed_Nimmervoll), they were "never really happy with [the album]. They'd been rushed. They knew the songs could have been better if they'd had more time."<ref name="Nimmervoll"/> It was dubbed, "competent but disappointing", by ''Beatdust''{{'}}s administrator.<ref name="Beatdust"/> ''The Post''{{'}}s Sam Bartlett observed, "[it] is all over the shop, suggesting a promising future, while summing up the coagulation of influences from hip-hop, rock, metal and even classical."<ref name="Bartlett"/>

Tim Cashmere of ''radioundercover.com'' felt it was "good work" and that unlike many contemporaries, the lead singer, "Jason does have a fairly decent voice."<ref name="Cashmere">{{cite web | url=http://www.radioundercover.com/ursunk.html | title=Sunk Loto – ''Big Picture Lies'' | author=Cashmere, Tim | website=radioundercover.com | via=National Library of Australia | archive-url=https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20040916034836/http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/11299/20010921-0000/www.radioundercover.com/ursunk.html | archive-date=16 September 2004 | access-date=13 January 2021 }}{{cbignore|bot=medic}}</ref> However Cashmere was disappointed by the limited edition's bonus [CD-ROM](/source/CD-ROM), which was "difficult to navigate, contentless, jerky horse poo."<ref name="Cashmere"/> The album's lead single, "Make You Feel" (August 2000), peaked at No.&nbsp;33 on the ARIA Singles Chart and was followed in December by "Sunken Eyes", which reached the top&nbsp;100.<ref name="ARIA Charts"/><ref name="ARIA Report 566"/> Cashmere described the former as being reminiscent of Korn and praised Jason's vocals on the latter.<ref name="Cashmere"/> Sunk Loto joined the Big Day Out tour in 2001, and also toured extensively for the following two&nbsp;years.<ref name="Alessio">{{cite web | url = http://whothehell.net/archives/220 | title = Sunk Loto | last = Alessio | first = Dom | work = Who the Hell | date = 6 December 2006 | access-date = 13 January 2021 }}</ref>

Dom Alessio of ''Who the Hell'' noticed "They were being pushed by their label to be the next [Silverchair](/source/Silverchair)."<ref name="Alessio"/> The group decided to improve the standard of song writing for their next album.<ref name="Nimmervoll"/><ref name="Lazarevic">{{cite web | url=http://15min.org/articles/2003/november/26/ootm_1.html | title=Sunk Loto – Intense Sounds on the Second Break | author=Lazarevic, Jade | website=The Post – TE Archive | location = Newcastle, NSW |date=26 November 2003 | via=National Library of Australia | archive-url=https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20120328180422/http://15min.org/articles/2003/november/26/ootm_1.html | archive-date=28 March 2012 | access-date=13 January 2021 }}{{cbignore|bot=medic}}</ref> Besides taking time with their song writing they faced personal hardships including the death of a friend, drug addiction, divorce and their equipment being stolen.<ref name="Nimmervoll"/><ref name="Alessio"/><ref name="Lazarevic"/> The group rejected a number of demos, Jason recalled, "We've just been writing music pretty much and it just took us a while. We kept coming up with demos and they weren't good enough. We just knew we could do better."<ref name="Lazarevic"/>

On 17 November 2003 they issued their second album, ''[Between Birth and Death](/source/Between_Birth_and_Death)'', a significantly darker and heavier effort with [Phil McKellar](/source/Phil_McKellar) (Grinspoon, Silverchair, Spiderbait) producing.<ref name="Nimmervoll"/><ref name="ARIA Report 718">{{cite web | date = 24 November 2003 | archiveurl = https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20031206130000/http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/23790/20031207-0000/Issue718.pdf | title = The ARIA Report | publisher = Australian Recording Industry Association (ARIA) | issue = 718 | pages = 2, 5, 10–12 | url = http://www.aria.com.au/pages/documents/issue718.pdf | archivedate = 6 December 2003 | accessdate = 27 September 2015 }}{{cbignore|bot=medic}}</ref> It peaked at number 48 on the ARIA Albums Chart, No.&nbsp;13 on the ARIA Australasian Artists and No.&nbsp;4 on the ARIA Heavy Rock & Metal chart.<ref name="ARIA Charts" /><ref name="ARIA Report 718" /> Its lead single, "Everything Everyway", had appeared in October 2003, and reached the top&nbsp;50 on the ARIA Singles Chart.<ref name="ARIA Charts"/> At the [ARIA Music Awards of 2004](/source/ARIA_Music_Awards_of_2004), McKellar was nominated for [ARIA Award for Engineer of the Year](/source/ARIA_Award_for_Engineer_of_the_Year) for his work on ''Between Birth and Death''.<ref name="ARIA2004">{{cite web |url=http://www.ariaawards.com.au/history/year/2004 |title=ARIA Awards – History: Winners by Year 2004: 18th Annual ARIA Awards |publisher=[Australian Recording Industry Association](/source/Australian_Recording_Industry_Association) (ARIA) |access-date=13 January 2021 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080304123324/http://www.ariaawards.com.au/history-by-year.php?year=2004 |archive-date=4 March 2008}}</ref>

Alessio observed, "the band were struggling with a falling popularity, as well as dealing with managers who were ripping them off. Then the SonyBMG merger resulted in Sunk being dropped from the label."<ref name="Alessio"/> In 2006 Sean Van Gennip departed the band due to creative differences and was replaced on bass guitar by Rob Kaay (ex-[Full Scale](/source/Full_Scale_(band))).<ref name="Alessio"/> The band finished a short Australian tour at the end of that year and planned to record their third studio album. McDonald wanted to "take their sound down an even darker path."<ref name="Beatdust" /> Dane, Jason and Kaay decided in May 2007 to work on a new project without McDonald,<ref name="Nimmervoll"/> due to irreparable creative and personal reasons.<ref name="Beatdust" /> Sunk Loto played their final show at the Hard Rock Hotel, Gold Coast on 14 December 2007.<ref name="Nimmervoll"/>

The Brown brothers and Kaay formed a new band, the Flood, which was short-lived.<ref name="Nimmervoll"/><ref name="Beatdust"/> Some of their tracks appeared on Kaay's Soundcloud page. Jason and Dane Brown later created Electric Horse with ex-members of fellow Gold Coast band, Lump.<ref name="Beatdust"/> Electric Horse issued an EP, ''Translations'' (2010), and a studio album, ''Venomous'' (2013).<ref name="Beatdust"/> McDonald was briefly a member of another Gold Coast group, Miacarla, before leaving the music industry.<ref name="Beatdust"/>

=== 2022–present: Reformation ===

After 15 years of being on hiatus, the band's founding members, Luke Mcdonald, Sean Van Gennip, Jason Brown & Dane Brown decided to reform Sunk Loto in 2022.<ref>{{cite web |last1=Billy |first1=August |title=Sunk Loto Announce First Live Shows In 15 Years |url=https://musicfeeds.com.au/news/sunk-loto-announce-first-live-shows-in-15-years/ |website=Musicfeeds.com.au |date=19 May 2022 |access-date=14 June 2022}}</ref> The band announced three shows in SE Queensland that immediately sold out and further touring was announced for later in 2022.<ref>{{cite web |title=SUNK LOTO // Announce 2nd Brisbane Show & Sydney and Melbourne Shows |url=https://www.hysteriamag.com/sunk-loto-announce-2nd-brisbane-show-sydney-melbourne-shows/ |website=Hysteria Mag |date=30 May 2022 |access-date=14 June 2022 }}</ref>

The band announced on 22 August 2023 that guitarist and co-founder Luke McDonald was no longer in the band.<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.facebook.com/SunkLotoOfficial/posts/pfbid0ZUKMqwN8SPyf8WsbU2GijoDV7htvTGkQhJWyo3PizdnL92TFJnq1GYsEPnnhis4il|title=Facebook|website=[Facebook](/source/Facebook) }}</ref>
On September 4, 2023, Rohan Stevenson of Melbourne instrumental band 'I Built The Sky' was announced as McDonald's replacement, taking up lead guitar duties as a fulltime member of the band. On 3 October 2023, the band officially released the track ''The Gallows Wait'',<ref>{{cite web | url=https://sunkloto.bandcamp.com/track/the-gallows-wait | title=The Gallows Wait, by Sunk Loto }}</ref> their first new music in almost 20 years.

== Band members ==

'''Current members'''

* Jason Brown – lead vocals (1997–2007, 2022–present); rhythm guitar (2003–2007, 2022–present); bass guitar (1997–1998)
* Dane Brown – drums (1997–2007, 2022–present)
* Sean Van Gennip – bass guitar (1998–2006, 2022–present)
*  Rohan Stevenson - Lead Guitar (2023–present)

'''Former members'''

*  Luke McDonald- Lead Guitar, backing vocals (1997 -2007, 2022-2023)
* Miles Matheson – bass guitar (1997)
* Adam Cox – turntables, samples, keyboards (2000–2002; touring)
* Rob Kaay – bass guitar (2006–2007)

'''Timeline'''
{{#tag:timeline|
ImageSize = width:900 height:auto barincrement:18
PlotArea = left:100 bottom:100 top:10 right:10
Alignbars = justify
DateFormat = dd/mm/yyyy
Period = from:01/03/1997 till:{{#time:d/m/Y}}
TimeAxis = orientation:horizontal format:yyyy
Legend = orientation:vertical position:bottom columns:4
ScaleMajor = increment:2 start:1998
ScaleMinor = increment:1 start:1998

Colors =
 id:Vocals  value:red         legend:Lead_vocals
 id:BVocals value:pink        legend:Backing_vocals
 id:Lguitar value:teal        legend:Lead_guitar
 id:Rguitar value:brightgreen legend:Rhythm_guitar
 id:Bass    value:blue        legend:Bass
 id:Keys    value:purple      legend:Turntables,_samples,_keyboards
 id:Drums   value:orange      legend:Drums
 id:Album   value:black       legend:Studio_album
 id:EP      value:gray(0.6)   legend:Other_releases

LineData =
 layer:back
 color:EP
 at:23/11/1999
 color:Album
 at:13/10/2000
 at:17/11/2003

BarData =
 bar:Jason      text:"Jason Brown"
 bar:Luke       text:"Luke McDonald"
 bar:Miles      text:"Miles Matheson"
 bar:Sean       text:"Sean Van Gennip"
 bar:Rob        text:"Rob Kaay"
 bar:Adam       text:"Adam Cox"
 bar:Dane       text:"Dane Brown"

PlotData=
 width:11
 bar:Jason      from:start      till:14/12/2007 color:Vocals
 bar:Jason      from:11/05/2022 till:end        color:Vocals
 bar:Luke       from:start      till:14/12/2007 color:Lguitar
 bar:Luke       from:11/05/2022 till:end        color:Lguitar
 bar:Miles      from:start      till:12/12/1997 color:Bass
 bar:Sean       from:01/01/1998 till:06/09/2006 color:Bass
 bar:Adam       from:23/01/2000 till:07/04/2002 color:Keys
 bar:Rob        from:06/09/2006 till:14/12/2007 color:Bass
 bar:Sean       from:11/05/2022 till:end        color:Bass
 bar:Dane       from:start      till:14/12/2007 color:Drums
 bar:Dane       from:11/05/2022 till:end        color:Drums
 width:3
 bar:Luke       from:start      till:01/01/2003 color:Rguitar
 bar:Luke       from:01/01/2003 till:14/12/2007 color:BVocals
 bar:Luke       from:11/05/2022 till:end        color:BVocals
 bar:Jason      from:01/01/2003 till:14/12/2007 color:Rguitar
 bar:Jason      from:11/05/2022 till:end        color:Rguitar
}}

==Discography==

===Albums===

{| class="wikitable plainrowheaders" style="text-align:center;"
|+List of studio albums, with release date and chart position shown
! scope="col" rowspan="2" | Title
! scope="col" rowspan="2" | Album details
! scope="col" colspan="1" | Peak chart positions
|-
! scope="col" style="width:3em;font-size:90%;" | [AUS](/source/ARIA_Charts)<br/><ref name="ARIA Charts"/>
|-
! scope="row"| ''Big Picture Lies''
|
* Released: 13 October 2000
* Label: Epic/Sony Music (5006289000)
* Format: [CD](/source/Compact_disc)
| 30
|-
! scope="row"| ''[Between Birth and Death](/source/Between_Birth_and_Death)''
|
* Released: 17 November 2003
* Label: Sony Music (5139052000)
* Format: CD
| 48
|}

===Extended plays===

{| class="wikitable plainrowheaders" style="text-align:center;"
|+List of EPs, with release date and chart position shown
! scope="col" rowspan="2" | Title
! scope="col" rowspan="2" | EP details
! scope="col" colspan="1" | Peak chart positions
|-
! scope="col" style="width:3em;font-size:90%;" | [AUS](/source/ARIA_Charts)<br/><ref name="ARIA Charts"/>
|-
! scope="row"| ''[Society Anxiety](/source/Society_Anxiety)''
|
* Released: 29 November 1999
* Label: Epic (668400 2)
* Format: CD
| 40
|}

===Singles===

{| class="wikitable plainrowheaders" style="text-align:center;"
|+List of singles, with year released and selected chart positions
! scope="col" rowspan="2" style="width:19em;"| Title
! scope="col" rowspan="2" style="width:1em;"| Year
! scope="col" colspan="1"| Peak chart positions
! scope="col" rowspan="2" style="width:11em;"| Album
|-
! scope="col" style="width:3em;font-size:90%;" | [AUS](/source/ARIA_Charts)<br/><ref name="ARIA Charts"/>
|-
! scope="row"| "Make You Feel"
| rowspan="2"| 2000
| 33 
| rowspan="2"| ''Big Picture Lies''
|-
! scope="row"| "Sunken Eyes"
| 76<ref name="ARIA Report 566">{{cite web | date = 1 January 2001 | archiveurl = https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20020220130000/http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/23790/20020221-0000/www.aria.com.au/issue566.PDF | title = The ARIA Report | publisher = [Australian Recording Industry Association](/source/Australian_Recording_Industry_Association) (ARIA) | issue = 566 | pages = 4, 8, 14, 20, 27 | url = http://www.aria.com.au/pages/documents/issue566.pdf | archivedate = 20 February 2002 | accessdate = 27 September 2015 }}{{cbignore|bot=medic}}</ref>
|-
! scope="row"| "Everything Everyway"
| 2003
| 46
| ''Between Birth and Death''
|}

==References==

{{Reflist}}
{{Authority control}}

Category:Australian musical quartets
Category:Australian nu metal musical groups
Category:Australian alternative metal musical groups
Category:Musical groups established in 1997
Category:Musical groups disestablished in 2007
Category:Musicians from the Gold Coast, Queensland
Category:Musical groups reestablished in 2022
Category:Australian rap metal musical groups

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Adapted from the Wikipedia article [Sunk Loto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_Loto) by Wikipedia contributors ([contributor history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_Loto?action=history)). Available under [Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/). Changes may have been made.
